1. Progesterone: not for everyone, but for many people it may increase
sex drive and WILL make your boobs bigger. Also effects mood in ways
that many find positive (but some find negative). Most doctors won’t
prescribe this to you unless you ask. Most trans girls I know swear by
it.
2. Injectible estrogen: is
more effective than pill or patch form. Get on it if you can bear
needles bc you will see more effects more quickly.
3. Estradiol
Cypionate: There is currently a shortage of injectible estradiol
valerate. There is no shortage of estradiol cypionate. Functionally they
do the same shit.
4. Bicalutamide: This is an anti-androgen that
has almost none of the side-effects of spironolactone or finasteride.
The girls I know who are on it are evangelical about it.
Are there HRT medications that don’t increase blood clot risk? I’m already at risk because of my blood pressure, and my doctor won’t prescribe HRT that increases clot risk while I’m on the medication – and I may never not be on the medication.
Absolutely.
The concerns surrounding venous thromboembolic events as a side-effect of hormone replacement therapy can mostly be traced back to one particular study known as the Women’s Health Initiative. This study was an enormous undertaking which, unfortunately, demonstrated significant adverse effects of the hormone therapies studied. As a result of this the use of hormone replacement therapy in postmenopausal cis women was dramatically reduced as the medical community began to question whether or not the therapy caused more harm than good.
Naturally, trans women have been suffering from this fall-out ever since.
What physicians seem to fail to recognize is that the study examined a very specific hormone regimen which was, arguably, outmoded at the time the study was conducted: It examined the use of conjugated equine estrogen (Premarin) with or without the use of medroxyprogesterone acetate. Neither of these drugs is regularly used for the treatment of transgender women.
The estrogen most commonly used to treat transgender women nowadays is 17β-estradiol either in pill form or in the form of a sticky patch that you apply to your skin. Esters of estrogen (e.g. estradiol valerate) are also sometimes used either in a pill form or as an intramuscular injection.
Transdermal estradiol patches are the gold standard when it comes to treating women who are at high risk of a venous thromboembolic event. It simply does not increase the risk of developing a venous thromboembolism. The only thing you should keep in mind is that patches are not always well tolerated because of the lifestyle changes required to keep them from falling off and the fact that they tend to irritate the skin.
It’s difficult to find hard numbers regarding the relative risk of venous thromboembolic events with regards to hypertension. The best I could find after an hour or so of searching was this study regarding VTE in lung cancer patients. Hypertension increased the risk by a factor of 1.8.
As far as the anti-androgen is concerned: The primary use for spironolactone for cisgender people is as an antihypertensive.
Even if the risk of thromboembolism was truly significant with modern hormone replacement therapy it wouldn’t justify what your doctor is doing to you. The fact is that mortality in the transgender community from suicide–caused in part due to the lack of access to hormone therapy–is substantial. The quality of life lost when a trans woman is denied hormone therapy is substantial. The fact that your doctor does not appear to be taking this into consideration when they weigh the risk of thromboembolism against not receiving necessary medical care is deeply concerning.
I strongly recommend that you seek a doctor who is more sensitive to your medical needs as a transgender woman.
Edit: Fixed a minor, but embarrassing, error.
oh wow this is so helpful & good info
Everyone who cares about transfem people please reblog this
this was really fucking helpful
I know a lot of trans women dont have acess to information like this and its very helpful.
Here’s some stuff I could have used being told when I started HRT:
If you do HRT, you are seizing control of and reconfiguring an aspect of your own metabolism, which is fucking cool and amazing, but despite what medical literature and community knowledge exists, you must always be your own advocate in the process (even if you think you have good doctors). As someone who deals with hypervigilance, I’m not going to tell anyone to be more vigilant, but HRT has myriad and subtle impacts on your body and mind (duh). Some of these you probably want, some of these you probably don’t, but telling the difference can be more tricky than you think.
Really watch yourself for side effects. I don’t mean relatively rare side effects like liver damage or blood clots, but simpler stuff that’s much easier to dismiss as just being transient or bearable, like nausea or mood swings. Such side effects are likely to be be small and easy to deal with in the beginning, easily borne, but if they become more serious over time they can do so so slowly that you don’t realize your quality of life is being reduced, especially if you’re loving many of the effects of HRT at the same time. Don’t accept any side effects of your meds as unavoidable, or akin to a price you have to pay for HRT’s benefits. Just adjusting the dosage of your meds, the times you take them, how you take them, and what you take them with can have a huge impact, but doctors can leave out that this is a process of experimentation, and that finding the right combinations of meds and dosages can take time.
Evangelical is not a word I ever thought I’d use for myself, and I’ve only been on bicalutamide for a week, but wow. If you are using spiro and experience any nausea or stomach pain while on HRT, even if you think it has other causes, or if you’re someone like me who carries their anxiety or fear in their stomach, I’d highly suggest at least trialing bicalutamide in place of spiro, just to make sure you know what’s causing that pain and/or nausea. I took 300 mg/day of spiro for about a year, and was waking up in pain and nausea every day without connecting the dots. Now that I’ve switched anti-androgens and tapered off spiro, in just a week I have twice the appetite and almost no stomach pain. What pain I do have dimishes every morning. So far, bica has been literally life-changing for me.
But I only found out about bica from another trans woman, here on tumblr ( @social-justice-cleric ) . My doctor insists he mentioned it as an alternative, more than a year ago, but frankly he stood by as my stomach pain became worse and worse, and only switched me to bica when I did my own research and asked him to. Don’t underestimate the importance of community and its accumulated knowledge- make sure you find other trans people you can talk about your transition without fear of judgment, especially including talking about any and all biomedical components of it. This is especially important for trans women who tend to socially isolate ourselves in response to stress or uncertainty (aka, me).
And as someone who really wanted results from HRT as quickly as possible, it’s ok if you end up wanting to step back your dosages, or if a medication doesn’t work out. This should seem obvious, but it doesn’t make you less of a woman to slow down or even stop doing HRT. Additionally, don’t assume that the speed at which your appearance changes is necessarily correlated to the amount of meds you take- there is for everyone a threshold of dosage past which there is no benefit (and instead just increased risk). For instance, I just finished a two month trial of progesterone- maybe my breasts developed a little more than they otherwise would have, but mostly I just had slight mood swings that trended slightly more to the negatives than the positive, so I’m not going to keep taking the stuff. And if spiro was the only anti-androgen out there, I might have stopped taking one entirely rather than stay on it. But decisions like these are hard, and intensely personal- your doctor can’t, or at least shouldn’t, make them for you.
Ultimately, all the biomedical means of transitioning are for is getting the changes you want to your body and/or mind. And despite the legal-functionary and regulatory components of biomedical transistion, these means do not make you into a woman. Regardless of whether or not you apply these biomedical technologies to your own transition, you are a woman. Some of us trans women come to accept increased medical risks, or endure physical discomfort, in pursuit of the self and life we want. In this, we are hardly alone among women. And, as is the case for any patient heading into a doctor’s office, what medical experts tell us must always be judged against our own embodied expertise.
Biomedically transitioning shouldn’t be seen as a necessary stage of one’s gender transition- it should be an opportunity available to all of us, but not one we all must take, or need to take, to be happy. Since we live in such a cissexist and transphobic society, biomedically transitioning is for many of us a desperately needed means of survival. And at the same time, and in equal measure, it is also for many of us a source of incredible joy. Listen to your doctor, listen to the community, listen especially to your body and to your own heart, and see what works for you.
Also, as a trans woman who has a chronic liver disease, bicalutamide can be hepatotoxic (damaging to the liver) and so far Spiro is the safest antiandrogen if you are a trans woman or AMAB nb in a similar situation as me. However, bicalutimide has not been tested in hrt doses, which are much smaller than the doses bicalutimide was originally for. Feminization begins as low as 12.5mg and the doses tested were 150mg.
estradiol depot is good replacement for valerate as well. 2nding the injections over pills. you can get so much more estrogen into your system SAFELY when it doesn’t have to be processed by your liver (which is what pills have to do).
(Yeah you don’t have continue this if you don’t want to, I know it’s bad… I just kind of wrote the thing that came to mind with this prompt. :’’) )
Logan had been trying for so long to be listened to. To be taken seriously. But it never happened. He tried so hard, but everything he said was ignored by everyone- well, save for Virgil but Virgil wasn’t being listened to either. Over the months, Logan was mocked for the puns and the song he did for fun, ignored, and pushed aside.
Awful thoughts circled through his head, from calling himself a joke to full-on calling him overemotional and useless.
For the first time in a very long time, he began to feel completely invisible and alone.
And finally, he broke.
Logan hasn’t ever broken before. Not like this.
One second he’s contemplating, the next he’s sobbing in his room.
Immediately, something is there with him. “Logan?”
The voice is familiar, but it sounds whispered around him. “Logan, what’s wrong?”
The voice is insistent, and Logan doesn’t know how to answer. How to explain what these bastard emotions he’s been having. How they affect him. How no one will help him understand them.
“I see. I’ll see what I can do to help.”
Logan doesn’t know why, but he finds it comforting.
Logan slips off into slumber, the voice whispering reassurances and kindness to him until dreams overtook him. Even in sleep, he is unhappy. His shoulders are tense, pulled up almost to his hears, and his mouth is pulled down into a frown. Wrinkles mar his forehead and they only grow deeper as he dreams. Even in rest, he can only brush the edge of peace.
As soon as Logan falls asleep, Deceit stands up. He has work to do.
The living room was all ready for movie night. Patton and Roman took the couch, each doing their beast to take up as much room as they could for “comfort”, and Virgil was content on the floor with the only bowl of popcorn balanced on his knees. Roman may have the couch, but Virgil has the food so who really has the power here?
“Is anyone else kind of unnerved?” Roman asks as the three situate themselves. “Like there’s something missing.”
“Yep,” Patton pipes up through a mouthful of popcorn. “It’s like there aren’t enough people in here!”
Virgil looks up at the other two, confused. Surely they… Know? “Yeah, guys,” he says slowly. “It’s because Logan isn’t here. Do you guys know where he is?”
“Well, I +dont+,” Deceit said from his place against the far wall. “But I certainly +intend+ to tell you. We need to have a talk.”
Everyone is on edge. Deceit doesn’t care, crossing his arms. He knows an eye is probably glowing, he’s taking careful watch of Logan. The logical side won’t even sleep peacefully, but Deceit knows he can’t help with that.
He wants to, but the only way he can is to fix what had caused Logic to break in the first place.
Break.
Deceit grits his teeth, holding back anger. They’d broken Logic and they hadn’t even realized it. How could they cause so much damage and still call themselves lights–
“Talk about what?” Roman says, glaring at the snake. Patton shares his own look of suspicion, but it’s less intense. If looks could kill, Virgil’s would have Deceit dead in the spot.
He didn’t care.
“Did you do something to Logan?” Virgil asks and Deceit has never felt the need to repress as much as anger as he did right now.
Had he done something to Logan? They had broken him.
Instead, Deceit give them a cold smile. He can feel the temperature of the room drop. “I +have+ done things to him,” he says, “What I +didn’t+ come to talk about was him.”
“Why do you need to talk to us about him?” Patton asks. Deceit feels his hands clench into fists. He bites back outright yelling it. His lips curl, menacing and creepy as he grins a little wider.
“I’ll say it +more then+ once,” he drawls, “+Dont+ start listening to logic.”
The warning was odd and rather vague, but no one could question it as the messenger disappeared the moment he finished speaking. The three sides looked at each other in silence, then back at the television. None of them were in the mood to watch a movie, now.
Deceit’s eyes soften. Logan looked so disoriented and lost. He walked over, knuckles brushing Logan’s cheek. Logan startled a little. “I do,” he says. The room around him is shifting and breaking, flashing from clean to mess.
Logan frowns, trying to think. “What… What is happening..?”
Deceit looks around again, brushing hair behind Logan’s ear. He wonders what would happen to the Logical side if he told him the truth. “There are some complications in Thomas’ mind,” Deceit says vaguely, “You’re input is needed.”
The room stays solid and clean for a moment, before flashing back into a strange messy blur. Logan frowns again. “My.. input.”
Deceit nods. “Yes, Logan. You’re input is needed. Allow me to help you clear..”
He takes Logan’s hand, inspecting it. Along the wrist, there’s a crack. He runs a hand over it, gritting his teeth against the anger he could feel bubbling up all over again.
They’d broken him.
Deceit knew that if Logan continued to break, the Crack would spread. He pulled Logan’s sleeve over it. “You’re going to talk to the others,” he says finally. “What were you talking about before?”
Logan frowns, trying to think. “Party,” he responds slowly.. “We need to think about the financials..”
“Good, alright. Stay on that. Think about it.” Logan frowns again, thinking hard. For a little bit, thinks seem clearer. Deceit nods in approval.
There’s a knock at Logan’s door.
“L?” Virgil calls, “Hey, can we talk?”
Deceit disapears, whispers of reassurances filling Logan’s ears before disappearing.
Logan walked across his room slowly, noticing how the room was quickly clearing up, changing back into it’s usual pristine cleanliness. By the time he’d reached the door, everything was exactly how it was supposed to be. Without another thought, Logan turned the handle and swung open his door to reveal Virgil.
The other side looked… Pretty bad, for lack of a better term. He stood in the doorway, shoulders hunched and head down, tilted enough that Logan couldn’t even see his face. But he knew from experience that the other side’s face was pulled into a dejected frown.
“Hey, Logan,” Virgil said softly. “Yeah, um… We need to talk.”
“Yes, of course we do,” Logan said, blinking in surprise. “Thomas needs our help to plan this party, correct? Now, there are some parts of Roman’s finance “plan” that are… Less than satisfactory to say the least. We should gather as a group and discuss this, so that Thomas does not spend what he cannot afford.”
With that comment, Logan was out of his room and walking down the hall. He had a job to do, things to accomplish. Focusing on his task kept things clear and he had no intent of letting go to suffer that awful blurriness again- almost like… Cracks in his vision.
Logan went to stand at his usual place in the living room, straightening his tie. The world went fuzzy for a second.
Virgil caught up, Patton and Roman were standing, ready to talk. Logan cleared his throat.
“The finances,” he says, “There’s no way we can afford everything in the birthday plan,” he addresses to Roman.
“The- What?”
“The finances!” Logan responds, “For the party, we don’t have enough money to cover everything in your plan. We need to rethink it.”
Roman shot Patton and Virgil confused looks. They shrugged in response. “Okay, I guess I can see your point,”
“Yes, I recommend we remove the jumper palace, it’s the most costly-”
“Hey! Not the palace, that’s the best part.”
Logan shuts up. Almost immediately, his mouth closes.
Suddenly Deceit is there, waving his hand the other three quickly cover their mouths.
The entire room jumped as the sides slapped their hands over their mouths. Logan was the only one of those there before with the ability to speak, yet he did not take advantage of it. He was dumbstruck bu the sudden turn of events and the surprise shook his focus. The blurriness began to set in again.
“What are you saying Logan?” Deceit’s oddly-kind voice cut into Logan’s thoughts, brushing away some of the blurriness with just a few words.
“I… I was saying that the jumper palace was the most costly and was also the most unnecessary to the functionality of the party,” Logan said hesitantly. Despite addressing the other sides, he kept looking at Deceit for reassurance as he spoke. He hardly supported the muting of the others, but he also knew Deceit was the only reason he was getting to speak at all, so it was only logical to take cues from him.
“So you want to remove the bouncy castle because it’s costly and we don’t need it,” Deceit said, still soft and kind. “Is there anything else?”
“I… There is the matter of the food,” Logan admitted. “Nothing Roman suggested is in a reasonable price range. Besides… Steak for everyone? Have we forgotten that Talyn is vegan, as well as others? There are no proper vegetables and fruits… Just sweets and junk food. Of course a party can have unhealthy foods. But there should always be a selection.” With all his thoughts finally out in the open, Logan gave Deceit a miniscule nod and stepped back.
Immediately, every hand dropped back down to their sides.
“Logan, I… I understand you feel unheard,” Roman began, visibly uneasy. “But some of your demands are just ridiculous. Can anyone here imagine a party without junk food? Really? The thought is simply laughable!”
“I love junk food! There are so many kinds,” Patton declared as he threw himself into the conversation. “Like cookies and chips!”
“Not to mention fruit tarts,” Roman cut in excitedly. “Those seemingly simple baked goods are enough to make even a prince like me sing with joy!”
Logan didn’t even bother responding. He had lost. Any clarification or protest would just cause a losing argument. The edges of the room became indistinct again, but Logan could find no way to focus on his task. He had failed, it seemed.
“Hey, guys,” Virgil cut in, suddenly halting the others’ conversation. “I thought we were going to listen to Logan, not critique him. He’s a valuable member of our group, remember? He’s important.”
“I can assure you, Virgil,” the Logical side said with a scornful scoff, “I am anything but.”
Only to have him clap his hand over his own mouth, startled and silent as Deceit crossed his arms.
Deceit hadn’t wanted to do it. But the more Logan spoke and believed he wasn’t important, the more he would crack. And Deceit needed to prevent that.
“We +will+ be having more of that,” Deceit says with a disproving glare. Logan looks down, and Deceit swallows past his guilt when he sees Logan’s hurt look. Deceit let’s Logan’s hands drop, his voice getting softer. “What I mean is, you are important and all of us can see it. We will not have you telling us otherwise, because we know it’s untrue..” Deceit cast a cold and deadly glare at the others, still speaking in a kind voice completely different from what his eyes conveyed. “Right?”
“Of course,” Virgil responded, feeling, for the first time, almost afraid of Deceit. Amongst a mix if other emotions. “You’re important Logan. You’ve always been important.”
“But-” Logan cuts himself off, looking at Deceit who only nods slightly. “But you all won’t listen to me.”
There is a small silence, before Patton frowns and speaks up. “Of course we do!”
Logan frowns, looking down again. Frozen. Deceit glares full force at Patton, before his eyes grow soft and he turns to Logan. “Logan,” he says gently, “What do you want to say in response?”
“I- I- You don’t..” Logan faded off, frowning. Deceit looked incredibly concerned. Clearing his throat, he regained Logan’s attention.
“Financials,” He gently reminds, “Let’s go back to those.”
Logan nods. “As I had said before, sweets are fine. But we can not have food primarily of sweets and we need more options. Thomas- We must remember others are coming to the party. Furthermore, we don’t have enough money to do everything. The food and bounce castle are the most expensive things we have in our- in your plans.”
There’s a moment where everyone processes. Deceit gently takes Logan’s hand as Logan frowns again, trying to stay focussed.
“Okay,” Roman finally says, “I see your point on the food. But I am not-” for a second he glances at Deceit. “I am not budging on the bounce castle.”
Deceit narrows his eyes, but nods in silent understanding. Logan is frozen, but manages to get past it on his own.
“Okay, then what are you willing to get rid of? The personal dj is also very expensive-”
“But our music!” Patton says abruptly, before tentatively covering his mouth. “Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt..”
Logan swallows, he feels frozen all over again. “We can play our own music.”
“I suppose I can agree to getting rid of the dj..”
“Um, but wasn’t the dj supposed to bring the lights..?” Virgil asks. Logan freezes, trying to think. Deceit leans into whisper into his ears, reassurances and reminders.
Logan fights past the freezing. “We can find alternatives that are less costly,” he manages, “We will have to look into it more.”
“Without the dj, can the bounce castle be afforded then?” Roman asks curiously. Logan frowns, trying to think- trying to calculate.
“No,” he says, “We need to get rid of-”
“Damn,” Roman says, mostly to himself, but it’s enough to make Logan freeze.
Deceit shoots Roman a glare, though it’s far less harsh. “Logan,” he soothes, pulling the logical side closer, wrapping an arm around him. “Roman wasn’t doing it to stop you. It was merely a reaction. Continue on.”
Logan leans into Deceit’s touch. It felt clearer then the room around him. “I believe if we get rid of a few of our more expensive decorations we should be fine.”
Logan closes his eyes, leaning farther into Deceit. He was so tired.. Virgil narrows his eyes. Deceit suddenly looks down with concern.
“Logan,” Deceit gently calls, and it’s still so strange to see the normally cold and, well, snake-like side so soft. “Logan you need to be awake..”
Logan is so tired.
“Logan!” Deceit hisses, still gentle but more firm. Logan snaps his eyes open. “Logan, we need to talk more. The finances have been taken care of as much as they can right now, do you agree?”
Logan frowns. “No, we could consider more food options, and talk about the decorations, and-”
“Logan,” Virgil cuts in, “We should talk about that in the morning. Can we talk about you for now?”
“Talk about me? However do you mean?” Logan seems genuinely baffled at the request and glances up at Deceit in confusion. “I don’t know of… I mean, is there something about me we should be talking about?”
“Oh, I have no idea,” Roman says, sarcasm dripping from his voice as he rolled his eyes. “How about the fact that you can’t get through a few sentences without clinging to Deceit like a lost kitten stranded in a storm? We’ve had these discussions countless times over the years, why is it now that you suddenly can’t do your job properly?”
Embarrassment struck Logan like lightning. He immediately pulled away from the taller side and looked away, arms crossed over his chest and graze focused on the quickly-burring opposite wall. Ruby red dusted his face but he refused to acknowledge it, just as he refused to notice the looks his sudden movement had earned him.
“Hey, Princey,” Virgil said, voice dripping with warning. “You know this isn’t his fault.” Logan didn’t even have to look up to know the other was looking at Deceit.
That thought almost certainly shouldn’t have made him as angry as it did.
“You’re right, Virgil, it’s not Roman’s fault,” Logan said levelly. “There are merely some… Well, I don’t have all the details as of yet, but there are some complications in the mindscape that are a detriment to my performance. It is my understanding that it is Deceit’s job to fix them, which includes keeping me grounded as things situate themselves back to where they are supposed to be.” He paused to glance over at Deceit for confirmation. The second he got a nod, he forced himself to look away and focus again on the wall. “Of course, the… The complete disregard for my input is hardly helping matters. It is… somewhat stressful to know you hold no respect-”
“Hey, Logan,” Patton cut in, concerned, “you know that’s not true! We respect you so much! You’re an important member of our team!”
“Exactly, Logan! As Patton said, this train of thought is completely ridiculous,” Roman said with a scoff. “We listen to you plenty. You are your facts guy! the figures guy! The guy who makes the fun times, uh… A bit-” A sudden look from Deceit made him stop talking immediately.
But the damage was already done. Logan had curled in on himself, almost hugging his chest as he stared on the floor. Of course, he was being ridiculous, completely illogical. Why wasn’t he thinking about this properly? Everything was getting fuzzier, blurring together until there was nothing but a mass of colors. He couldn’t even see right, how could he be expected to do anything, much less his job? He was just… Useless. Helpless.
Voices surrounded him, faded and unclear as Logan tried desperately to get a grip. Nothing was coming through, but a hands on his arms and a few whispered words that were -he hoped- from Deceit.
“It’s alright, Logan. I’m sorry. I’ve got you. We’ll get you out of here, alright? You just have to breathe.”
Deceit gave Roman a glare that could’ve killed twenty men and immediately stood in front of Logan, placing his hands in his arms and speaking softly for him to breathe.
“I’m sorry, Logan, it’s alright, you need to breathe, can I lead you through some breathing excer-”
Logan cut Deceit off with an abrupt sob and stepped forward into him. Deceit had a brief look of surprise and panic before he had his arms around the logical side, lacing his fingers through Logan’s hair and whispering reassurances.
Glaring at the others, he gave them an accusing look that clearly conveyed, this is your fault.
“Logan,” he says gently, “Do you want me to take you to my room?”
Logan nodded, and Deceit sent them a final glare before disappearing with Logan safely in his arms. In his room, Logan found that seeing clear was a bit easier. Deceit pulled him to sit on the edge of the bed, and Logan’s sobs faded to little sniffles and gasping breaths. He clung onto Deceit like a lifeline.
Deceit held onto him, pulling Logan’s sleeve up to inspect his wrist. The Crack hadn’t grown, but it did look deeper. Deceit pulled the sleeve back down, laying Logan down on the bed. “Logan, dear, why don’t you rest? We can talk again in the morning. I’ll hold you until you fall asleep.”
Logan nodded mutely, and Deceit pulled the covers over them, wrapping an arm around Logan and holding tightly.
Logan was asleep in minutes, and Deceit slowly removed himself from the other, appearing in the living room with a a furious and cold glare.He had never felt such anger towards people before, malice and anger boiled in his blood.
“You,” he hissed lowly at Roman. “And you.” He turned to Patton. His anger was palpable, made the air around them fill with tension and cold.
“Hey,” Virgil says, “Calm it Snake Face-”
“Calm it?” He says incredulously, glaring at Virgil. “Have you seen what you’ve done to him?”
“What we’ve done?” Roman says incredulously, “Clearly it is you that’s done something!”
Deceit snapped. One second he was standing, the next he’d ran at Roman and lunged. Roman didn’t even have enough time to draw his sword as Deceit pinned him to the wall, his own weapon in hand. A dagger with a gold snake around the hilt, almost alive as it coils and moves. He holds it against Roman’s throat.
“Hey!” Patton says in shock. He and Virgil start, and Deceit steps back before they can reach. He slides his dagger back into hiding in his sleeve. He straightens his collar and cape fastens. Clears his throat.
“I,” He says lowly, “Have done nothing to Logan. You, on the other hand – all of you, though Virgil less so – have broken him.”
Deceit feels anger bubbling up again as he repeats, louder. “You broke Logan.”
“Okay,” Virgil cut in quickly. “Can we stop talking about Logan like he’s a toy? Logan is a person. A side. We can’t break.”
“Yes, exactly,” Roman said emphatically. “You’re just treating him like an object! If you’re so concerned with helping him, you’d treat him like the person he is!”
Patton was, for once, silent as he glances between his friends and the outcast side. When he glanced back at Deceit, their gaze suddenly locked. The taller side raised his eyebrows meaningfully and finally Patton spoke up.
“Well, actually… That’s not entirely true,” Patton admitted with a wince.
Roman blinked in surprise. “What do you mean?”
“Well, Roman,” Patton began, only to cut himself off with a sigh. “Sometimes, when a side is going through a really tough time and doesn’t feel, well… Supported or part of our system, they begin to… Well, they begin to crack. And, eventually…”
“Eventually, they break completely,” Deceit finished as Patton trailed off. “You’re lucky that hasn’t happened yet.”
“How do you… How do you know that, Patton?”
The other side just offered a pained smile and a shrug. “I’ve been around the longest out of all of us, bud. I’ve seen a lot of things. Like… What not being accepted can do to someone.”
“I see,” Virgil said softly. He looked at Patton through his bangs, expression nigh unreadable. The second the other glanced over to him, however, he averted his gaze.
“So,” Roman said loudly. “You’re saying that… What, Logan has been stressed and because you guys didn’t… We weren’t listening to him enough, he began to what… Die?”
“Oh! Oh no,” Patton said hurriedly. “Sides don’t die when they… When they break. They just… Change, that’s all.”
“A side will be +exactly the same+ after breaking completely,” Deceit said quietly, eyes sliding closed. “You would +always+ recognize them.”
“So this is… A bad thing,” Roman said slowly.
“Roman!” Patton whipped to face Roman, a guilty frown on his lips.
Deceit had to hold himself back from attacking the prince again. He plastered a large, fake smile on his face and cleared his throat. Everyone jumped and turned towards him. The second Roman saw his expression, he took a step back.
“I just mean that maybe change is a good thing,” Roman explained hurriedly. “Of course Logan shouldn’t feel alone like that. But… A little change wouldn’t be too bad, right? Maybe it would help Logan and I see more eye-to-eye.”
“This isn’t a little change, Roman,” Deceit hissed. He was just barely keeping himself calm at Virgil and Patton looked at him with extreme concern. “When he breaks… If he breaks… There will be such a change in his personality that the old Logan +continue+ being relevant. You’ve seen a glimpse of it, just today.”
“So Logan will be like that all the time?” Roman asked, audibly horrified.
Deceit scoffed and crossed his arms. “It depends. If you three pull your weight, then we’ll see.”
Logan woke up in an unfamiliar place, blurrier than ever before, and his first thought was, “Why can’t I see?” He fumbled around for his glasses blindly until finally, through some stroke of luck, his hand wrapped around the lens. Gently, he brought the spectacles up to his face and slid them on. However, almost nothing was any clearer.
Trembling hands swept carefully across the lenses, only to feel dozens of little cracks all along them.
“What do you mean if we three? Don’t you have some part in this?” Virgil asked, “It can’t have been only us.”
“Virgil,” Patton warned, “Don’t say that.”
“No, seriously, if he knew-”
“If I knew?” Deceit questioned, anger in his tone. “If I knew? I +did+ know. I +always+ appear in videos and hang out. I’m +constantly+ around you. The only people who +don’t+ talk and hang out with him on a regular basis are you three. I +am+ one of the people who call myself his friends only to lead him to the point of breaking. I +wasn’t+ only made aware of this because it +isn’t+ my job to make sure things stay in line! The only people around here who +aren’t+ responsible for other sides breaking are you three!”
He hadn’t realized he’d raised his voice. He cleared his throat, unclenching his fist. Roman narrows his eyes, ready to respond. Patton beat him to it, looking away as he spoke in quuet whisper. “I never did say sorry, did I?”
The words feel like a slap to the face. Deceit tenses up and he shrugs. “It +does+ matter. It +wasn’t+ a while ago.”
There’s a brief pause. “Logan +isn’t+ awake,” Deceit finally says, and disappears.
“What do you mean you never apologized?” Virgil asks. Roman seethes.
“You shouldn’t have anything to apologize for to that villain,” Roman adds on. Patton looks at them with a sad sort of smile.
“You’d be surprised.”
Deceit appears in his room and sees immediately that Logan is crying again. His eyes soften as he walks over. “Logan, dear,” he whispers gently, pulling the glasses out of the sides hands as he sees the cracks covering the lenses.
“I-I I’m useless,” Logan sobs, and Deceit shakes his head.
“You’re not, Logan.” Deceit responds. “You aren’t useless. Banish the thought. Let’s go to the others, they’ll tell you the same.”
“No!” Logan shouts, “No, they won’t- I don’t- No!”
Deceit hears the cracks on Logan’s wrist spreading and he swallows. “Alright, Logan, I understand you don’t want to. Would you be willing to later?”
Logan let’s himself cry a couple seconds longer, before nodding his head and throwing himself into Deceit’s arms. Deceit sits on the bed, letting Logan cry. Logan didn’t fall asleep, instead crawling away from Deceit and laying back down on the bed.
“Can I stay here until I’m ready? It’s.. it’s clearer..”
“Of course.”
Deceit appears, lacking Logan. He sighs. “Logan is +not+ refusing to come.” His tone is vague and implies there’s more to it.
Roman glares. “Well make him! We need to fix him!”
Deceit glares. “I +will+ force him to come when the reason he’s breaking is because he +does+ feel heard.”
Roman shuts up. Virgil narrows his eyes at Deceit. “What does Patton have to apologize for? Why don’t you explain that?”
“Virgil!” Patton scolds, honest anger in his eyes for once. Virgil shrinks away. “Apologize.”
“What- why?”
Deceit glares. And without hesitation, pulls his gloves off. The room drops to dead silence as they stare at his hands.
Their covered in scars, spiderwebs of cracks, every inch is covered and they don’t stop there, disapearing under his sleeves.
[Note: More below the cut]
“What the hell?” Roman gasps, a hand raising to slightly hide his mouth. “Your hands, they-”
“I am aware,” Deceit snaps. He glares and pointedly yanks the gloves back on, never once looking away from Virgil- whose face was almost green at the sight.
“You- What caused that. Patton isn’t like that. Patton wouldn’t-“
“And you wonder why I never told you,” Deceit says, rolling his eyes.
“Come on!” Roman protests over Virgil’s continued stuttering. “Virgil, you must see this is some sort of trick! I would have known if something like this had happened, even if Patton was the sort of person to cause this! I’m younger than Patton, but not by that much! I’d have remembered.”
Deceit falls silent, gloved hands clenching and unclenching by his sides. Today was a bad day, because the scars burned as his hands moved and stretched. He never knew why those scars never healed or turned into scales, unlike the others. But he has no choice but to deal with it- and the memories that come with it.
“Wait…” Roman suddenly stops his protests and looks Deceit over.
“He must have figured it out,” Deceit thought to himself. “Took him long enough.”
“Deceit… How old was Thomas when you broke?”
Virgil looks between Roman and Deceit silently as the “dark” side’s face became almost completely expressionless. Something uneasy twisted in his gut, made only worse by Patton’s guilty expression and continued silence.
“We aren’t here to talk about me, Roman,” Deceit says levelly, void of all emotion. “Why don’t we discuss Logan?”
“Discuss Logan?” Virgil pipes up, “What else do we need to discuss? He isn’t feeling heard or important, so we just have to remind him of that.”
“Why is he important?” Deceit questions, wandering into the kitchen. He was a bit hungry.
“Well that’s easy!” Patton chimes in, “he’s the smart one!”
“Yeah, and he helps keeps us grounded so we don’t go in over our heads,” Virgil adds.
“Exactly! He’s the brains! He’s our teach!” Roman continues with a flourish, hand gestures wide and dramatic.
“So why haven’t you been listening to him?” Deceit asks, digging around the cupboards.
“Well… I guess we just got carried away,” Patton admits, “Sometimes it’s hard to listen when we just want to do everything.”
“And that’s a little hard to override,” Virgil looks away, and Roman even has the decency to look a but guilty.
“Yes, sometimes it just seems like he takes the fun from it.”
Deceit hums, grabbing some granola bars. “Have you considered he’s the only one keeping the fun in it?”
“What- how?” Roman questions.
“Hm, tell me, if we hadn’t considered the Financials and the issues with the food how horrible would the party have been? Thomas would have felt awful for not considering everyone’s choices and the stress of the Financials would have caused a breakdown. Logan’s input was and is the only thing that allows you’re fun ideas to be realistic and not backfire.”
There’s a silence, and Deceit’s a little more irritated as he realizes they honest hadn’t considered it before. He bites into a granola bar, expecting usual taste of ash but finding – a little happily – that he could taste it. He smiled to himself for a second, before addressing them again.
“Logan is an extremely important and vital part of your group, something you have all failed to realize. I give credit to all of you for at least trying once or twice, but there are fundamental points in all our existences you all have failed repeatedly to realize. Most notably at the moment being Logan. If you continue to disregard and cut him off every time he talks or react negatively whenever he brings perfectly valid points and concerns he will break entirely.”
Deceit’s tone of voice was emotionless and conveyed nothing but cold disinterest. He had apparently been rather hit by Roman’s previous question about his breaking.
“Alright. Fine, but why is he clinging to you?” Virgil asks, and it’s honest curiosity. “And how do we make sure we don’t chase him away again.”
“Yes! We’ve been trying and it hasn’t seemed to be working, and Logan seemed especially embraced when I brought the clinginess up!” Roman responds, Patton hums.
“Oh I know that one, that’s emotional. Deceit has been the only one actively supportive and Logan was clinging onto him for support. Obviously kiddo doesn’t do that stuff normally but in this vulnerable state it was the best way for him to cope. When you brought it up he was embarrassed because he’s not usually one for stuff like that.”
“Yes,” Deceit agreed, “And the best way to avoid breaking him further is to stop speaking until each person is done, and do not go into side conversations with others without adressing him.”
“What-”
“An example, when Patton went into a side conversation with Roman about deserts, excluding Logan and dismissing his opinion. Or when Roman told Logan his complaints were ridiculous and then saying the exact opposite of what Logan had been clarifying. Logan’s words at the time we’re simply clarifying that sweets and junk food we fine and that we had needed more variety in food choices. Roman negates this by saying Logan hadn’t wanted any sweets, immediately settling that he hadn’t heard or listened to Logan in the slightest.”
There faces were growing paler as they listened. Deceit continued, ruthless and emotional. “You claim you are okay with Logan expressing emotions, however you have failed to realize that Logan himself did not understand them, leading to impulsive and occasionally violent actions which you then scolded and used as ammunition as to why you shouldn’t listen to him. His negative emotions are not allowed to be expressed because you guys believe he cannot feel them leading him to bottle them up until points of explosion. I give Patton points for noticing and beginning to adress this but the issue still stands.”
There was silence as Deceit took another bit of the granola bar and swallowed. “So I’ll say this again. If you continue to treat Logan as nothing but Logic while then claiming he isn’t Logic he will fall apart. Your constant changes in opinions and views of him towards him have left him broken and if you do not fix your own way you have no hope of fixing him.”
[Note: More after cut]
Deceit’s words immediately made Roman fume. He took a step forward, hands clenched, before suddenly recollecting himself. He took a deep breath and stepped back. A quick look up had him locking eyes with Deceit, who stared back with an unimpressed expression.
“Something to say there, Roman?”
“Well- I just… There…” Roman stopped talking and glanced over at Patton, whose sad look still had not let up- in fact, had gotten even worse. “I was just wondering… If it really is that bad? You do have a tendency to…”
“Now Roman,” Patton cut in, solemn and quiet,”be nice.”
“I know, I know. It’s just, well… How long do we really have to fix this? It took a while to get to this point, right? So surely it must have a lot of time to… Fix it… As well?”
Immediately, Patton and Deceit both shook their heads.
“It doesn’t work like that, bud.”
“There is a breaking point,” Deceit added with a drawl. “He will keep cracking until he can’t, and then he’ll shatter almost immediately. Like an +explosion+.”
Virgil flinched at the image. “So we just… We take turns speaking and we don’t ignore him with side conversations… And this will all be fixed. Really?” He didn’t seem convinced, with the way he bit his lip and played with the sleeves of his hoodie.
“That will it,” Deceit said confidently. “At least, if done correctly.”
“So we can fix this,” Patton said, hope flickering in his hesitant smile. “We can make things better for him and be a family again!”
“Yes!” Roman gained enthusiasm and sported a wide grin. “This doesn’t seem to hard. We can definitely do this.”
“You’re, uh, forgetting one problem, guys,” Virgil said from his corner. “How can we treat Logan properly when he won’t even talk to us?”
The other two “light” sides froze, but Deceit merely rolled his eyes. “He will speak to you again. He was upset and overwhelmed, not angry at you. It’s getting late. I’ll talk to him in the morning and, if he’s willing, suggest we talk to three tomorrow. In addition to our own problems, you all also have that party to prepare, remember,” he added. “He will be offering his opinions and even his critique. Address this properly, for his sake.”
With those final warning words, he disappeared for the final time that night, leaving the three other sides by themselves.
Deceit contemplated. “That isn’t something I can answer,” he responds, “But I’ll help you answer it.”
Logan frowned again, looking down at the notes in his hand. “How?”
“Perhaps I can help you process what I am to you. We can pick apart evidence and emotions, I’ll help you as best I can.”
“Okay,” Logan says, uncertainty flooding his gaze. “I have another question, then.”
“And what is it?”
“What- What am I to you?” Logan’s eyes shined with vulnerable emotions and uncertainty, confusion and misery flooding over. He looked Dee in the eyes, and there was something like desperation there.
“I..” Deceit faded off. “I’m not entirely sure yet. You’re important to me, and I care deeply for you. I don’t interact with you often, but in the times I have there is a certain care I place with you that’s different from the others.”
Logan nodded, looking down. “You’re- you’ll still help me figure out what you are to me, right? I-”
“Of course,” Deceit soothes, watching Logan’s distress. Logan calmed down, and he swallowed, hesitancy filled his features.
“Can I- can we-” Logan made a frustrated sound and reached out, touching Deceit’s chest. “It’s clearer like this.”
Deceit shifts, moving papers out of the way and pulling Logan closer against him.
Patton stood awkwardly as the other two moved. Roman sat down on the couch with a huff while Virgil moved to sit on the counter in the kitchen and angrily eat some chips.
“Patton, can you tell us about Deceit’s about break?” Roman asks, and Virgil turns his head.
“Yeah,” he agrees. Patton smiles awkwardly. “Uh, I don’t think he’d like that kiddos.”
“Oh come on,” Virgil says, “Roman already knows, doesn’t he? Just tell us the whole truth.”
“No, that’s not-”
“Patton,” Virgil says firmly, “Please.”
Patton is about to respond, before Virgil sighs. “Nevermind, I’m going to my room to sleep.”
The anxious side disapears, leaving Patton alone with Roman. Patton feels a discomfort that he isn’t sure he’s ever felt before, and Roman clears his throat awkwardly. “So, Damien?”
The name makes Patton want cry. He nods. “Yeah.”
“What happened?”
“We shunned him, remember? It was something so stupid- Thomas’ first lie or something. I didn’t even realize it until years later-” Patton’s eyes water. “We were almost twins, I couldn’t believe it and then I saw him and I- we-”
He swallows past a sob. “I asked him, and he showed me his hands. Told me about breaking. And it-”
Patton snaps, tears streaming down his face. Roman gets up, pulling him into his arms as Patton begins to cry in ernest.
[Note: More under cut]
Logan settled comfortable against Deceit, one single sheet of paper clutched into his hand. “You care a lot for me,” he began matter-of-factly, though his downcast gaze and slumped shoulders told a different story.
“Yes, of course,” Deceit said, his arms wrapping just a bit tighter around the shorter side. “You are important, Logan. To me especially.”
Logan nodded again, but didn’t say anything at first. A thoughtful look passed over his face as he fell silent. Deceit waited for Logan to collect his thoughts so he could say what he wanted to say, all the while rubbing soothing circles into the other’s back.
Finally, Logan said, “I do believe you are… Important as well. To me. I… You… It is easy to trust you, despite your reputation. And I… I Value your opinion. I want to… Do things that make you think well of me. To make you proud. Of me.”
“You do,” Deceit assured, still tracing circles. “I think so very highly of you. You are important and I am so proud of you for making it this far.”
Logan squirmed in Deceit’s hold until the other let go, concerned. Once free, he backed up and moved so his back was against the pillows. He could handle some blurriness if he could have enough distance to think. Suddenly the embarrassment made the comforting contact not so comforting anymore.
“I… I admittedly am not the best with emotions,” Logan said slowly. “But I can’t help but feel my desire for your approval and the joy upon seeing you return… Have romantic connotations. I feel as if you are something to me that I do not understand quite yet, as it is outside of my expertise.”
I won’t not reblog this. Mateo is a personal friend of mine and this needs more attention than it’s been getting. He was dragged out of the room by his collar, the police wouldn’t let him use his wheelchair.
Mateo will not be silenced, and he will not be erased.
feedback culture has rly died on here for content creators tbh
Gradually, it’s been declining, but i feel that right around the 1st few months of this year is when it rly took a huge plunge
Not only have i noticed this w my own art and stuff, but a lot of friends who create stuff have noted similar things. even popular artists and writers who used to get 5k+ notes per post are only getting a couple hundred. I used to get abt 800 per post and now im lucky if i break 50. 90% likes to 10% rbs.
Ppl say u shouldnt create just for the attention but damn spending HOURS on smth and getting little to no feedback when u used to get a decent amount is shit
This goes for fic authors too. We don’t get reviews much anymore, people just hit the kudos button and call it good.
Please leave feedback on creative content guys. Its super important.
Even if you just say nice things in the tags, anything would be nice.
feedback culture has rly died on here for content creators tbh
Gradually, it’s been declining, but i feel that right around the 1st few months of this year is when it rly took a huge plunge
Not only have i noticed this w my own art and stuff, but a lot of friends who create stuff have noted similar things. even popular artists and writers who used to get 5k+ notes per post are only getting a couple hundred. I used to get abt 800 per post and now im lucky if i break 50. 90% likes to 10% rbs.
Ppl say u shouldnt create just for the attention but damn spending HOURS on smth and getting little to no feedback when u used to get a decent amount is shit
This goes for fic authors too. We don’t get reviews much anymore, people just hit the kudos button and call it good.
Please leave feedback on creative content guys. Its super important.
Even if you just say nice things in the tags, anything would be nice.
Anxiety-prone-human 